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In S7E4, there is a scene where Ser Brienne is "training" Podrick (i.e. kicking his ass) in the courtyard at Winterfell and Arya steps in to try some of her own moves. The final act of their battle sees Arya drop Needle and then reach for the dagger of note (which she already has) with her right hand. Brienne grabs Arya's right hand to immobilize it and then raises her sword with her other arm, and Arya calmly flips the dagger to her left and holds it to Brienne's throat.



I believe Arya's answer to Brienne's question of where she learned that move explains how Arya got past the various dead to attack the Night King.

As for Jon not being injured by fire, that's a Targaryen thing, right?

gbruin wrote:As for Jon not being injured by fire, that's a Targaryen thing, right?

I haven’t seen this explanation yet, but I had forgotten about this. Good catch.

Ubik wrote:

Such a fucking awesome piece of music!

Andy92 wrote:

gbruin wrote:As for Jon not being injured by fire, that's a Targaryen thing, right?

I haven’t seen this explanation yet, but I had forgotten about this. Good catch.

I don't think so, otherwise Viserys wouldn't have gone out like a punk.

That battle was fun to watch but rather pointless. They KNEW the NK was going to want to come for Bran and despite putting him in the Godswood to act as bait, set up no ambush to take him out, instead just leaving Theon and a couple of his buddies to defend him. During this time, Bran did absolutely nothing but fly around as some Ravens. He mentions in one of the earlier episodes how he has to prepare for the fight to come then proceeds to do nothing during it. At best he signals the NK to his position by using his ability, but there's little point of being bait if there's no trap. Arya just happens to ninja her way there after deciding to leave the castle, it was never part of the original plan. They completely neutered his character arc's payoff and seemingly have no plans for him now that the Battle of Winterfell is over, instead reducing him to a walking (rolling) plot device to reveal Jon's background. Even this is somewhat redundant considering it could have been discovered by Sam independently with one more flick of the pen based on what he found in the archives. I was also disappointed in Arya's transition from a failing Faceless Man student that barely escaped with her life to an uber ninja assassin but that unconvincing transition started with her sparring match with Brienne, as cool as it was to watch. The show writers mentioned they knew about 3 seasons ago they wanted Arya to be the one to deliver the final blow so my guess is this is all just their writing and George's ideas pan out quite differently.

Overall I think I'm just very disappointed with the show's writing after they ran out of George's source material around Season 5. The characters are shells of their former selves, often taking action that is uncharacteristic for them, and the dialogue has lost a lot of its meaning and bite.



Compare this exchange with any non-mega budget CGI moment or choreographed scene from the past few seasons. Most of the nuance and layered complexity of the story has been lost and replaced with fan service, large spectacle payoff scenes, plot armor and a sprint to just get everyone placed where they need to be the for the next spectacle scene without much care for how or why they are there. These guys are pretty good at adapting existing work but they seem to struggle to write their own material. Makes me worried about the Star Wars movie they will be making next.

I’ll admit the writing isn’t near what it used to be after they ran out of source material. Euron’s character is my biggest gripe of someone they’ve butchered. I’m disappointed that the only thing they used the Night King for was to deplete Dany’s armies before facing Cersei. NK was setup from the beginning to be the endgame, not an obstical to overcome before fighting Cersei.

I thought the whole point of Jon’s character arc was to unite all of Westeros to fight in the Great War because ultimately the Iron Throne is pointless in comparison to saving humanity. They spend one episode saving Westeros just to jump back into squabbling about a throne.

It's really just really expensive fan fiction at this point.

Not saying it's always bad... Sometimes it's really good, and I'm not saying none of this will happen in the books, but you know it will have good writing and make more sense.

I think The Great War and The Last War will kind of happen at the same time in the books. In season 3 and 4 they make it look like there's a lot of time between the Red Wedding and the Battle at the War, but in the book those events are happening really close to each other.

Season 5 and 6 as well. John's death and everything that went on at Winterfell happened at the same time in the books and sometimes influenced each other, while in the show they are completely separate.

I think it will be the same here. When the Long Night is defeated in the books, it will be a lot closer towards the end of the books and they won't have to deal will Cersei or King's Landing afterwards as if that's the bigger threat.

Part of what they suffer from is just not having enough screen time to flesh out every story. I’ve never been one to care about how long it takes someone to travel from King’s Landing to Winterfell. I don’t need to see someone traveling on a horse for 5 episodes to make that seem more realistic. But there are some places in the past couple seasons where the plot just doesn’t make tons of sense.

I think there’s a good rule of thumb that if a character is going to stay alive, they should be kept in situations that make it reasonable for them to live through. The amount of times Jaime and Brienne became buried in Wights made it hard to believe that they always fended them off (same for Sam surviving on a pile of bodies). I don’t mind that these characters survived, but don’t put them in such unbelievable death-avoiding situations. Same thing with Dany’s dragons last episode. You’re gonna tell be they hit Rhaegal multiple time from the side but can’t land a single shot on Drogon as he’s staring straight at the ships?

Those are the types of scenes I think they’re failing at. I have some other problems with the Night King turning out to be so little of a threat If that’s how the larger scheme of the plot was supposed to go, that’s fine, but at least make the little moments within the battles a bit more believable. They’re filming for the equivalent of “jump scares” in horror films at this point just to get reactions out of people. It’s the opposite of how what happened to Ned and Robb was completely believable but still shocking.

I'm hoping they don't give Arya the killing stroke for Cersi. She already had her big moment with the Night King. My hope is they give it to Jamie so he can add QueenSlayer to his resume. With all the artificial tension they keep setting up in these episodes now, it would also make sense that they are trying to pull a bait and switch with when Jamie made Brienne cry.

HBO offered D&D more money for longer seasons but they turned them down. I think they realized they had no additional story they could meaningfully flesh out of these characters with their skills which are more suited for adaptation. Some of the scenes are just downright funny to me now like when Arya said Sansa was "the smartest person she knew" when they only winning thought she's had that Bran didn't give her was to tell Tyrion he was a fool for trusting Cersi. Tyrion has been reduced from one of the most clever characters to a Hand that gets every single recommendation he gives incorrect and telling Cersi she isn't a monster lol.

The prophesy from Maggy the Frog said that Cersei would be killed by one of her brothers (the valonqar), didn't it? I assumed that's why she sent Bron and his crossbow north.

“Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned ... and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end ... death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn.”

That was a stupid episode. I’m almost mad I watched it. Aside from all the obvious stupid choices, didn’t all the Dothraki die in the big battle?

Bran sees a single dragon shadow flying over King’s Landing in a Season 4 vision he has (also when he sees the Mad King saying “burn them all”). I’m all in agreement that the writing has been lazy recently, but this storyline hasn’t just appeared out of nowhere. It’s been setup for a while now.

“I will take what is mine, with fire and blood.”

“A Targaryen, alone in the world, is a terrible thing.” - Maester Aemon

Well, damn.

Andy92 wrote:Bran sees a single dragon shadow flying over King’s Landing in a Season 4 vision he has (also when he sees the Mad King saying “burn them all”). I’m all in agreement that the writing has been lazy recently, but this storyline hasn’t just appeared out of nowhere. It’s been setup for a while now.

“I will take what is mine, with fire and blood.”

“A Targaryen, alone in the world, is a terrible thing.” - Maester Aemon

I agree, I think it's the logical end point and Dany has been a tyrant in training for ages. The pacing of two massive events like this just doesn't work over a short season like this, let alone 3 episodes! Night King south of the wall was worth a season by itself, as was Dany's final descent.

Glad Arya got away, at least. And I liked Cersei and Jaime's end.

In season one, Khal Drogo vowed to rape all Westerosi women and murder all men, and Dany sat there with a smirk on her face. She was always going to be the mad queen.

I think S7 should have been 10 episodes devoted to the Night King, and S8 should have been 10 episodes devoted to this war and Dany’s demise. The people online saying they ruined Dany’s character arc haven’t been paying attention to her (I don’t say this saying everyone should like this season, the show has had plenty of questionable pacing and writing issues).

I’m looking forward to hopefully getting to read this in the books, but I agree that she was always destined to become the Mad Queen. She freed slaves to build an army and crucified the masters. She burned alive people in Westeros that dared oppose her. She has never been a truly benevolent ruler. She was friendly to the Dothraki and Unsullied because they fought for her with no questions asked. With all that being said, I do like her character, but her storyline doesn’t surprise me.

The show is better than the books



i never read the books

gbruin wrote:The prophesy from Maggy the Frog said that Cersei would be killed by one of her brothers (the valonqar), didn't it?

Those were some nice expectations you had there. It would be a shame if someone were to...SUBVERT THEM!

Seriously, having Jamie inadvertently lead her to her death was somewhat of a lame "interpretation" of the prophecy, but when I actually went back to read it, it doesn't seem relevant at all. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you." Some people are saying "oh well he was holding onto her when she died". He didn't choke the life from her. Other people are saying valonqar which simply refers to "younger sibling" refers to Dany, which can only be taken metaphorically but since the text actually says HIS hands, that doesn't work either. So basically, it's crap.

I don't really mind Dany's "transformation". She always had a bit of tyrant going on and I do actually find it intriguing that GRRM would set this up as basically the reverse of Snape. Trying to remember another character that has had this type of transformation before where people go from cheering for them to horrified. I'm curious if the final episode will try to depose her for her actions or if they'll just go with it since there are no enemies left. My guess is the former since Jon keeps withholding his affections.

This episode had a lot of moments where I was just laughing at how they were trying to tie things up. The burning of the Iron Fleet was hilariously inconsistent after they 360 no scoped Rhaegal in the last episode with 3 hyper accurate shots then couldn't land a single one this time from much closer. At the negotiation last episode we were led to believe the dragon was outmatched by the scorpions...nah. Jamie vs Euron was a pointless confrontation with an implausible outcome. The Mountain killing Qyburn...lol...? Cersi and Jamie getting taken out by bricks...honestly what even was the point of Jamie's character arc? He's right back where he started and nobody is better off for it. Arya accomplishes nothing apart from acting as a POV for the audience and and showing off her shiny plot armor. Varys' getting offed was anticlimactic and lacking any of the subtlety or nuance of the earlier politicking of the show. Might as well have killed him at the end of the last episode instead. Now Tyrion will most likely be executed once Dany finds out Jamie's gone if the rest of #TeamStark doesn't help him first. I'm excited for the final dumpster fire this weekend!

Jaime's redemption arc has been flawed ever since he came back to King's Landing at the end of season 3. But at last, he turned his back on the woman he loved the most in the world, to fight alongside his enemies against the army of the dead. He was confronted by Bran and the awful thing he did in the very first episode. His arc was over. He could've died in Winterfell, he could've had his happily ever after with Brienne, but he chose to die in the arms of the woman he loved the most... his sister. I don't ever consider that to be a relapse. He consistently loved Cersei more than anything else in the world throughout the seasons.

The valonqar prophecy was never in the show.

This episode had a lot of moments where I was just laughing at how they were trying to tie things up. The burning of the Iron Fleet was hilariously inconsistent after they 360 no scoped Rhaegal in the last episode with 3 hyper accurate shots then couldn't land a single one this time from much closer. At the negotiation last episode we were led to believe the dragon was outmatched by the scorpions...nah.

Both times we've seen the scorpions before, they were used as a trap. I agree, it was a bit too easy here, but Dany had time to prepare, used the sun to her advantage, and had a bit more... luck. I think last episode was more problematic when it comes to this.