The Stormlight Archive Mafia - Life Before Death - The CHAOS of Night 3

[Lotha]

I... don't know if I've ever disagreed with a post in a game more?

Uhhh... right back at ya, I guess?

Me directly asking for help does not change Kaladin's decision at all?

Then why even ask for Kaladin to protect you if you think so? The only reason being: to divert attention from yourself, or set a false trail. That helps with your strategy, whatever the fuck it might be. Unfortunately for you, I'm not sure that strategy is helping town. The best possible option I see is that your claim is false. But if your claim is false, the confusion that move would create hurts town more than it does mafia.

You and I both know, smart mafia gets rid of the threat.

Yeah, unless they know that threat is likely to be protected, in which case they'll look for an easier target.

Again, if both town vigilantes successfully kill a mafia, it blows this game wide open for the town. Having both kills be successful means town has more days to find the last mafia, because we only now have to find one.

That's a BIG assumption you're making, especially since you want to use your kill before we've had more than two phases to figure out who's who. Unless Wit strikes gold on night one AND night two, the vigilantes' shots will be just shots in the dark.

I really do not see how putting myself directly in the middle of the fire by claiming one of the vigilantes (or any role for that matter) right off the bat diverts attention to somebody else. Just because I asked for Kaladin to protect me doesn't mean that's actually what I want.

But you're not putting yourself in the line of fire. You're putting everyone other than yourself. If you don't see how saying HEY I'M TOWN AND DOC PLEASE PROTECT ME might make mafia think "yeah she'll likely be protected, let's go for somebody else tonight," then what's the point of your move? (as I asked above as well)

RE: mech talk, my role claim didn't have to end up in mech talk, and I think you know that. Ubik clearly saw that there was probably more behind it than simply a role claim. I think you probably see that too...

Lol, of course it did have to end up in mech talk. It's way too early in the game to be going in with a convoluted plan based entirely on assumptions that might very easily prove false.
Of course I considered the possibility that there may be more to your role claim but to me it's simple: If you're not what you're claiming and trying to set a false trail -- that smacks of a convoluted plan to me. If you are what you claim, then you made a bad move.
In both cases, I'm not very happy rn.

[Lotha]

But anyway, I don't wanna get into a huge Day 1 discussion and completely derail the rest of the game with it. I've made my points. I strongly disagree with whatever your strat is, good luck with it. We'll see how it pans out.

[zazthespaz]

Now you guys have to bear with me as I'm new to this particular game, but generally in my experience with social deduction the first person to break the silence and claim a role is usually someone just trying to start the conversation to figure it all out. However, this does tend to split up the groups opinions on them and stirs it all up.

With that in mind, I don't think Inc is a threat at this point, but does lead me to believe that there is more than what is currently being said about their role.

Definitely has given us some things to think about

TABN Mod interruption: I just approved this post and it was on the last page, so I wanted to highlight it for anyone who might've missed it.

Lotha & Inconquerable, please carry on.

[Ubik]

Nale wouldn't claim anyway because he's on the side of the Voidbringers.

Of course, my point was just that there are three possible vigilante roles.

Also, by claiming a role so soon and so openly asking for Kaladin's help, you are making target selection much easier for the Voidbringers if Kaladin listens to you. If anyone should claim their role and ask for protection right at the start, it's Wit (or maybe even Dalinar). Szeth or Jasnah are vigilante roles and don't bring enough to the table, especially in the early game, to justify hogging the doctor role. Without information from the cop, they're killing based on hunches and scum reads which is less than ideal.

I don't think your strategy is a good one and I do think you should reconsider it. I'll believe you're not a Voidbringer, however - for now.

How does me asking for Kaladin's help make their choice easier? Kaladin doesn't have to listen to me... I'll answer anything, but the one thing I want to avoid as much as possible is mech talk, because that gives mafia way more than a role claim.

You just had to make an entrance.

My first thoughts here are similar to Lotha's. Role claiming has had little benefit for the town in the last few games, and has made targeting easier for the mafia. You even asked a question in the previous game where your preferred answer was for people to step away from claiming - okay it was a mass claim, but still. Doing so on a vigilante role where there are more than one, and therefore where the risk of counterclaiming is minimal, is also a little off-putting, as is that you mention one of the mafia in your list of other vigilantes. So I guess my question is - why make this claim? Where's the benefit? I realise you might have something deeper going on in which case you obviously shouldn't tell us, but I still need something decent on those questions. Doing it just so we can have a vigilante kill doesn't seem enough to me.

I think the distinction is important though that mass claiming is bad. And like I said in the previous game, that question was to get people talking instead of just messing around on day one for 48 hours without getting anywhere. Which is... part of my answer to your questions here. But before I get there, of course I would list Nale as one of the options? This might sound a bit concerned about optics here, but imagine the field day you would have had with me if I had intentionally left Nale out.

Anyway, your questions. I obviously can't get into everything, there is a strategy involved, but what I said in my post was the goal. You and Lotha might not agree that having two town vigilantes is a big thing, but I certainly do. If we manage to both successfully kill one of the Voidbringers, we only then have to find one mafia, and we have far more day phases in which to do it. Whereas if we don't have vigilantes, we're in a spot similar to last game where we basically have to get it right each time (especially if we're going for a no vote in day one). Am I also getting reads based on responses here? Of course! You know that I read alignment into every post in the early stages, same thing here.

I agree they're good, but you have to admit that your "if" there is a large one - we'd still have to find them regardless otherwise we're taking potshots. I can see reasons why you'd have made the claim as town, which you've kind of confirmed in your most recent post, I'm just trying to zone in on the right one. Just so much to unpack here.

As to Nale - well to me it's kind of a category error. Nale's just... mafia, they'd lie in a role claim anyway so it doesn't matter that they'd also fit the description of a vigilante type, so when you said "I am one of the three vigilantes" it made my innards shiver a little. But, I also don't think you'd be making that kind of slip as mafia...

[Lotha]

Thanks zaz, I would've missed it.

Yeah you have a point Julianna. I don't think Inc is a Voidbringer.

And Ubik, good point about Nale.

[Timotheus]

Whether we agree with Inconquerable's tactics or not, I think the question to ask ourselves right now is: How do we deal with this situation? Can we somehow take advantage from it?

Maybe everybody should answer these questions:
1. Do you think Inconquerable is innocent or not
2. If she's innocent, are you prepared to take actions based on this assumption?
3. If she's not innocent, are you prepared to vote her out?

Myself:

1. I think she's innocent for the reasons stated in an earlier post. Of course not fully convinced.
2. I am prepared to follow a plan, as long as Inconquerable is not the one who makes the plan
3. /

[Lotha]

Agreed on all counts, Timo. But who then makes the plan?
Generally I'm most for hearing from people who haven't had a chance to chime in yet.

[Inconquerable]

Now you guys have to bear with me as I'm new to this particular game, but generally in my experience with social deduction the first person to break the silence and claim a role is usually someone just trying to start the conversation to figure it all out. However, this does tend to split up the groups opinions on them and stirs it all up.

With that in mind, I don't think Inc is a threat at this point, but does lead me to believe that there is more than what is currently being said about their role.

Definitely has given us some things to think about

Which is part of what I wanted. I'm going to be very brutally honest here, I HATE shitposting in day one. That's why I asked the question to open the game last time, and that's part of the reason why I made a big move to start today. We have 48 hours to get some leads and get some preliminary information, why not use it?

I agree they're good, but you have to admit that your "if" there is a large one - we'd still have to find them regardless otherwise we're taking potshots. I can see reasons why you'd have made the claim as town, which you've kind of confirmed in your most recent post, I'm just trying to zone in on the right one. Just so much to unpack here.

As to Nale - well to me it's kind of a category error. Nale's just... mafia, they'd lie in a role claim anyway so it doesn't matter that they'd also fit the description of a vigilante type, so when you said "I am one of the three vigilantes" it made my innards shiver a little. But, I also don't think you'd be making that kind of slip as mafia...

Unpack it, baby! Oh of course, I am totally making a big assumption that both vigilantes get it right, and we definitely have work to do before and after.

Very true. But I did deliberately put Nale in there because I don't want/need to hide that there's also a mafa vigilante in the game. Like if I had said, "hey I'm one of the two town vigilantes!!!" would you not come in and say "uh there's a mafia vigilante too..."? I would.

@Lotha: I know you don't want to continue talking about it, but there's one point in your post that I want to address when I get back home after grocery shopping. You obviously don't have to respond if you don't want to.

[Timotheus]

Agreed on all counts, Timo. But who then makes the plan?

[Lotha]

Lol fortunately we have a great track record with that /s

@Incon: I don't mind you addressing my post, feel free especially if it makes things clearer.

[Ubik]

Whether we agree with Inconquerable's tactics or not, I think the question to ask ourselves right now is: How do we deal with this situation? Can we somehow take advantage from it?

Maybe everybody should answer these questions:
1. Do you think Inconquerable is innocent or not
2. If she's innocent, are you prepared to take actions based on this assumption?
3. If she's not innocent, are you prepared to vote her out?

Myself:

1. I think she's innocent for the reasons stated in an earlier post. Of course not fully convinced.
2. I am prepared to follow a plan, as long as Inconquerable is not the one who makes the plan
3. /

1. Currently, innocent.
2. I'm open to listening to them, but am not sure what we can do this early, particularly if we don't want to talk mechanics (although I like talking mechanics, INC.)
3. I'm assuming this is to anyone that answered "no", but I'd say that even if I was minded to think that way I still wouldn't vote her out. I don't see any way that her actions so far would've helped the mafia (targeting wise yes but I think there's enough day 1 uncertainty to negate it), and on the chance that she's town she's likelier to make the maf sweat the longer she lasts.

[zazthespaz]

This reminds me of me calling out my doctor role last game (inadvertently). It caused some discord for a while, but had some benefit (I think). Inconquerable was probably involved in that more than others and therefore understands the gravity of calling out a role, so I see a couple reasons why she would do that.

A) to rightfully establish herself in that role despite possibly having to make a strong argument for it in the near future
B) to cause confusion and distrust at the start of the game, allowing the mafia (her team) to move through easier (note: she hasn't claimed a specific role so unless the 2 townie vigilantes have already teamed up, there's no one to counter her claim)
C) she enjoys drama and enjoys throwing out seeds of contention to watch us chickens peck at them

Historically, Inconquerable does throw questions into the start of the game as an icebreaker so I'm giving her a little bit of the benefit of doubt at this point and going to believe her role claim, but my sus radar has piqued.

[zazthespaz]

The guy jumping seems a bit unneccesary.

[Inconquerable]

Then why even ask for Kaladin to protect you if you think so? The only reason being: to divert attention from yourself, or set a false trail. That helps with your strategy, whatever the fuck it might be. Unfortunately for you, I'm not sure that strategy is helping town. The best possible option I see is that your claim is false. But if your claim is false, the confusion that move would create hurts town more than it does mafia.

Yeah, unless they know that threat is likely to be protected, in which case they'll look for an easier target.

So I kind of think we're maybe in a round about way talking about the same thing, but coming at it from two very different philosophies, which is totally cool. I like that, and I like that we can talk about it. My reason for asking for Kaladin to protect me was 100% not to divert attention away from myself, because clearly claiming one of the vigilante roles in the second post of the game was not going to accomplish that. I think I may have gotten out of it what I was hoping for, but with only... three people having commented on my claim so far, it's hard to be sure.

That's a BIG assumption you're making, especially since you want to use your kill before we've had more than two phases to figure out who's who. Unless Wit strikes gold on night one AND night two, the vigilantes' shots will be just shots in the dark.

Like I said to Ubik, definitely it's a huge assumption. But it's also a huge assumption that Kaladin would just protect me outright because I asked them to. And I don't agree that vigilante shots have to be shots in the dark, this is, again, why I don't like not posting content stuff on day one. We can learn a lot about roles from day one stuff if we use it properly. If coming out and claiming vigilante on day one sets that off, I'm happy to do it. You can see from the last game that I try to get as much out of people as possible because it's helpful. This is how I made the connection from Timo to Ubik. The more game-focused discussion we have, the easier it is to look back on and make connections.

But you're not putting yourself in the line of fire. You're putting everyone other than yourself. If you don't see how saying HEY I'M TOWN AND DOC PLEASE PROTECT ME might make mafia think "yeah she'll likely be protected, let's go for somebody else tonight," then what's the point of your move? (as I asked above as well)

This was the main point I wanted to talk about, because I actually agree to a point. But again, this works on the assumption that Kaladin protects me in the night phase, and that it somehow makes Kaladin more likely to protect me. I actually think a smart Kaladin doesn't protect me in the night and sees where the chips fall. I would prefer that route.

Lol, of course it did have to end up in mech talk. It's way too early in the game to be going in with a convoluted plan based entirely on assumptions that might very easily prove false.
Of course I considered the possibility that there may be more to your role claim but to me it's simple: If you're not what you're claiming and trying to set a false trail -- that smacks of a convoluted plan to me. If you are what you claim, then you made a bad move.
In both cases, I'm not very happy rn.

I like the fire from you, we didn't see this last game. You haven't cracked it yet but I like the fire.

[Lotha]

And I don't agree that vigilante shots have to be shots in the dark, this is, again, why I don't like not posting content stuff on day one. We can learn a lot about roles from day one stuff if we use it properly. If coming out and claiming vigilante on day one sets that off, I'm happy to do it. You can see from the last game that I try to get as much out of people as possible because it's helpful.

I mean, I agree, but there is a big difference between shitposting on day 1, asking people questions and starting conversations on day 1, and outright claiming a role and trying to set a strategy with your first post on day 1, while not being one of the unique roles. That's where it gets a bit overkill for me. I'd be fine with a less extreme version of starting a conversation, especially since now the mafia can write you down as "one of the vigilantes, ok let's try to find the cop or the doctor first". Provided you're not actually either of those, falsely claiming vig, but that kind of role claim reversal wouldn't look good for you later in the game.

[zazisaspaz]

Mmhmmm okay so super fun start here!

Hi there Julianna

In response to Timo:
1. Sure, for now I think she’s innocent. In fact, I’m not even sure who the bad guys are in this game SINCE EVERYONE KEEPS CREATING SUCH WILDLY COMPLEX MAFIA STORYLINES! (That’s a compliment)
2. Honestly don’t care if we vote her off or not hahaha sounds super harsh, but it’s day 1 and we never learn anything until actions are taken. Do I think it’s smart to vote her off? Definitely not. But would I try to stop people? Probs not. (Totally would in real life though. She’s aight.)

[Silver]

I definitely agree with Lotha here. Any sort of role claiming on d1 raises a lot of alarm bells to me because I don't see any good reason for it. Regardless of the fact taht Inc didn't name an actual role, the fact that she's openly claiming a vigilante role makes me really suspicious. I also don't like a lot of fluffposting on d1 but on the other hand there's ways to go into opening up good discussion without making it super elaborate and just causing chaos.

In response to Timo:

1. I have no idea if Inc is innocent or not (i often don't start getting good reads until d2) but this is definitely not a good look on her, I feel.
2. I mean, I'm fine with voting out anyone until I see a better person and right now Inc is definitely the weirdest soooooo yeah I guess?

[UhohitsJulianna]

Hi there Julianna

Hello!

In response to Timo:

1. I don’t think Inc has done anything to prove innocence, but I also don’t think she’s proven that she’s mafia.
2. I don’t have enough information on anyone to vote them out. So I’m open to suggestions, but Inc does appear to be the only target at this point.

[Ubik]

The most interesting thing about it for me is... how quickly she did it. About 25 minutes after Andy started the game, which is a pretty short amount of time to decide to make a play like that. More than possible she'd looked at the roles beforehand and come to the conclusion it would be worth doing if she got one of the vigilante roles (or even wanted to pretend she did). What I think is less possible is that the mafia collectively would've discussed and agreed to it in that time, and she almost certainly wouldn't have done it off her own back as mafia. This isn't foolproof reasoning but as far as today's concerned, I'm happy.

[zazisaspaz]

Majority of us just witnessed Inky in the last mafia game. The woman is wild! Haha so to me this is a totally predictable move on her behalf. This means that the players who are now like "ohmygawsh what is she doing?!? I don't understand!?!" either skipped reading more of her posts than I did last game, or perhaps they are trying to knock off a townie early.....