Thinking about picking up a Mesa Boogie soon, questions

[DeadCell]

I've been putting in a lot of overtime lately, and decided I should reward myself. I'm way overdue for a new amp. I've had a Crate XT120R 2X12 solid state combo for 10 years now (since I was 18). Yeah, I know, Crate, ewww.

So, I'm thinking that if I upgrade, may as well go with the best (in my opinion anyway), Mesa Boogie.

I want to go with something powerful, yet portable. I'm not ready to go in on a halfstack yet, no real use for it. I'm finally joining a band after a long while off stage, but we're just getting started and probably won't be gigging anytime soon.

So I've been thinking about picking up a Roadster or Road King Dual Rect combo (2X12), or picking up a Dual or Triple Rect head with a 2X12 cab. Sadly, you can buy a half stack for the price of a combo on ebay (which I don't really understand). I'm just having a hard time making a decision.

This isn't something happening immediately. Gotta make sure everything is taken care of and that buying this thing won't put the wife and I into any financial trouble first. So that gives me some time to think it over. But I know many of TABN guitarists own Mesas so I thought this would be a good place for advice.

So what would you get?

- Roadster Combo
- Road King Combo
- Dual Rectifier head + 2X12 cab
- Triple Rectifier head + 2X12 cab

[Andy92]

Those combos are extremely heavy. That's why you tend to see the half stacks go for the same price. I'd go for a head + 2x12 personally. The Dual Recs made in the 90s are generally more coveted than the newer ones, so if you can find a 90s one with a 2x12 that'd be ideal. If not, I'd still take a Dual/Triple plus a cab over the combo. The 2x12 will be really valuable to you. If you ever want a new head later, you already have a killer cab.

[mitch103]

I play through a dual rec with a 2x12 cab, love it! You don't need to shell out extra bucks for a triple rec.. that's overkill even for gigging. As far as what andy mentioned.. I guess people tend to think the older 2 channel dual recs have a better dirty tone or whatever but then newer ones like what I own have a much better sounding clean channel and an added middle (orange) channel which you can set up as anything from a mid's and gain cranked lead tone to a dialed down smooth bluesy sounding tone. Get the dual rec and 2x12 if you got the $$ and if making a lot of noise even just to practice isn't an issue as the amp needs to be turned up a bit in order to give the best tone

[DeadCell]

Thanks for the recommendations guys.

I've been researching a lot over the past few days and pretty much already eliminated the triple rectifier. I read that it is overkill (like one of you guys said), and plus... the dual has better tone (thats opinion of course).

I didn't realize the combos would be that heavy. After you mentioning that, I went on ebay to check out some specs and yep, the Road King weighs around 87 lbs. So I think I'll go with a dual head + 2x2 cab.
Not really sure if I'll go with an older dual solo head or a newer dual solo head. I think I'll skip the Road King since they're around $600 beyond what I'd want to pay, and the Roadster is similar in price to the Road King (plus I don't really care for the darker tone of the Roadster). Of course, my opinion on the Triple Rect and the Roadster are solely based on amp demos I've heard online (which can be misleading).

The thing I hate about Mesas..... it would take an act of congress to actually be able to try one. I've searched around in my city and can't find one anywhere. I've played a Dual Rect around 5 years ago and loved it, but haven't seen one since.

Anyway, newer dual solo head or older dual solo head plus a cab. I've got some more debating to do

[Andy92]

Trying to play one does suck depending on what area you live in. There's a Mesa dealer around 45 minutes from my house thankfully. I don't own one, but that's where I'll go if I ever get the cash back for a good amp. Check your local craigslist adds too. Sometimes guys will let you try an amp if you're interested.

May I ask what kind of cab you're looking into? Mesa makes excellent cabs, but they can be pricey. You don't want to really skimp on it though. If you want a nice cab that's a little cheaper than Mesa and brand new, look into Avatar Speakers. I think their new 2x12s are like $400-$450, and you can get pretty much any speaker combo you want with that. I debated building my own 2x12, but after pricing wood, speakers, tolex, etc, I was only going to save like $40 compared to Avatar lol.

[DeadCell]

Trying to play one does suck depending on what area you live in. There's a Mesa dealer around 45 minutes from my house thankfully. I don't own one, but that's where I'll go if I ever get the cash back for a good amp. Check your local craigslist adds too. Sometimes guys will let you try an amp if you're interested.

May I ask what kind of cab you're looking into? Mesa makes excellent cabs, but they can be pricey. You don't want to really skimp on it though. If you want a nice cab that's a little cheaper than Mesa and brand new, look into Avatar Speakers. I think their new 2x12s are like $400-$450, and you can get pretty much any speaker combo you want with that. I debated building my own 2x12, but after pricing wood, speakers, tolex, etc, I was only going to save like $40 compared to Avatar lol.

I plan to go with a Mesa Rectifier 2x12: http://m.ebay.com/itm/131200516275?nav=SEARCH

Yeah, no Mesa dealers too close by but checking Craig's list is a great idea lol.

[DeadCell]

Well, I snagged a Dual Rectifier Solo 100 on ebay for $1000. It looks like it's in immaculate shape. My only concern after reviewing the pics (still waiting on it to arrive) is its not biased correctly. It set to EL34's, when you can see clearly in the pics that it has 6L6's in it. The seller offers a 14 day money back guarantee so thats good.

Needless to say I'm stoked! Now I just need to get a 2X12 cab.

Question, have you guys seen the vertical 2X12 slant cabs that Mesa makes? I saw these and I'm torn. With the horizontal, that would have two speakers pushing out to the crowd, but I wouldn't be able to monitor my sound that well. The vertical would allow me to monitor my sound but I'm afraid a single 12 inch speaker wouldn't push enough sound to the crowd (especially when the other guitarist is running a 6505 half stack). Thoughts?

Again, I'd like some mobility (I drive a Honda Civic after all), so I'd prefer to not get a 4X12.

[Andy92]

I'll pass along a tip I heard on a guitar forum from a guy that's been playing for like 30 years.

"Get a horizontal 2x12, and when you're playing live, set it on a box. If the venue you're at doesn't have a box, crate, or something to set a 2x12 on, you're playing at one crappy venue."

But I think the horizontal 2x12s are pretty nice. They aren't as bad to haul around as a 4x12, and you also have more options for speakers. With a 1x12 you'll need a speaker rated for at least 100W, and those aren't quite as easy to find. With a 2x12 you can get a couple 60W speakers and have 120W ready to go.

Nice snag on the head by the way! Does it have 6L6 tubes in it currently? I'm curious as to why it's biased for EL34s when it comes stock with 6L6s and those are currently what's in it.

[DeadCell]

Good call. Just getting the amp a few feet off the floor would do great. I dont think the vertical cab would push enough sound.

Idk to be honest. Maybe the previous owner had more money than sense lol. He said it plays fine so until it gets here, I'll assume it does. I just know that the manual says that incorrect biasing can cause issues with the tubes, as well as the biasing circuit. But yeah, it definitely has 6L6's in it, and the pic showed the bias switch set to EL34.

[Andy92]

Is the switch inside the amp or external? I think it's inside, but I can't remember. Every amp has it in a different spot, and most have a potentiometers inside you can turn with a screw driver to adjust the bias. If it's set for EL34 bias and has 6L6s in it, I'd probably get a tech to adjust it. Basically to read the bias you have to open the amp and read the current at the bias circuit using a multimeter. The current coming through the meter will indicate of it's biased for EL34s or 6L6s.

Honestly, it's a pretty easy procedure, BUT I would not suggest doing it if it requires opening the amp if you don't have any experience working around circuitry components. Although if I remember correctly you said on here at one point you were an EE, so I'm sure you know all about caps and how you should drain them properly before probing around in there. I'd bet it's something you could do yourself, but at the same time if you don't feel comfortable doing it, you can always have a tech look at it. It takes more time to unscrew an amp cover than it does to change the bias, so it's not a really big thing.

If the amp is biased "cold" it will cause the amp tone to sound kind of brittle, and if it's biased "hot" it will cause the tubes to die faster. That's why you want it biased to that sweet spot.

Edit: AFTER ALL THAT...I looked it up, and I see you're talking about an external switch. Just make sure the switch position matches the tubes in the sockets and you're good.

[DeadCell]

I'm impressed, you actually remembered I am an EE. Props on the memory lol.

I cracked up at your edit haha. Good knowledge to know on thr amp though. I am good with circuitry but not anything amp related. Vacuum tubes, bias circuitry, rectifier circuitry.... all an alien language to me lol.

But yeah, I was just gonna flip the switch
However, if I cant nail the tone I'm looking for, I may take it somewhere to check the biasing on it.

[Andy92]

They don't teach you a lot of audio stuff in school unfortunately lol. I just graduated as an EET, but most of what I do with guitar amp circuitry has just been from research in my own time. They taught us how to drain capacitors, but we didn't get to do it at 300-500V levels. Although one of my professors was a guitarist, so he gave me some tips outside of class when I'd be hanging around the labs. You just have to be safe when you open an amp up.

Tubes just act like transistors or op amps. They're in there to amplify the signals, but they're used in the high end guitar amps over other components that do the same thing because they just sound better to the ears musically. Some high end pedals use FETs which tend to sound better than basic transistors, but those still haven't replaced tubes either. The tube is really an outdated piece of technology though. They're fragile, they need replaced somewhat often, they're picky about current levels...but 50 years later we still haven't really found a better option musically lol.

I'm just rambling at this point, but anyways yeah it's never a bad thing to have a tech look at an amp when you buy a used one just for good measure. I'm sure you'll love the amp.

[PiggySmallz]

Congrats on the purchase, now comes the fun part of figuring out how to dial it in haha. I've got a dual rec also and I'm constantly tweaking it!

[DeadCell]

Thanks for the additional info Andy. If I can find a decent tech around town, I may take it in and let them look at it.

I will probably start off with some of the factory presets listed in the manual, then tweak for ages until I find what I like. Its gonna be an ongoing process. Despite me playing guitar for 13 years, I dont have a good ear for tone. I've never really been around great equipment (minus one buddy's 5150 and recently my new bandmate's 6505+). I've been playing through a 2x12 Crate combo for 10 years, just picked up a POD HD500 last year to increase my tonal selection and to help develope my ear a bit.

I feel like, with buying this Mesa, I'm a 13 year old kid dating this hot girl thats way out of my league lol. I've got her, now.... what do I do with her? Its gonna be a trial and error process I'm sure. And what sounds good one day may sound like trash the next.

[DeadCell]

Obviously, I've got some time so I'm scoping out all of my options.

Has anyone ever tried an Orange cab with a Dual Rectifier? I wonder how it compares to the Mesa cabs.....
I've read in a lot of places that Mesa cabs are the cream of the crop. But I've also read that Orange cabs top them. I suppose its all opinions though. Idk.

Unfortunately, trying them out in a side by side comparison is almost impossible around here. I have yet to see a Mesa cab in this city. I was fortunate enough to actually see a Triple Rectifier head the other day though. I was pretty blown away.

[Andy92]

Mesa 2x12 vs Orange 2x12 is like the different between scoring the hot blonde and scoring the hot brunette...lol. They're both top quality. Sometimes you'll run across the extremist opinion that loves one and hates the other, but it's either they have really picky ears or they're fanboys. They use the same speakers anyways, so all the tone difference comes in the wood and dimensions of the cab at that point.

Avatar Speakers and Whitebox are a couple places you can get custom ordered cabs from. Just pick V30 speakers to match what the Mesa and Orange cabs have. A new Orange 2x12 is like $750, new Mesa $650, and the custom ordered from those companies will run around $500.

Oh I will say though if you're primarily playing hard rock, you'll want a closed back cab.

[DeadCell]

Yep, closed back is a must for the low end/bass response.

Just scoping options lol. I'll check out Avatar and Whitebox. They sound like a great alternative to save a few bucks.

[HellRazor1281]

My singer also plays guitar and we had a discussion about cabs and the fact that I really need to get a new one. Bass player told me the same thing. Currently own a Peavey XXX with a B-52 4x12 slant cab. Bought both used from Guitar Center about 8 or 9 years ago. Replaced the tubes last fall when I joined my band after a 5 year hiatus of not playing at all. Anyway, my singer runs a Dual Rec through a Randall 4x12 cab, and he read that Randall cabs are kind of a hybrid of your Boogie cabs and Marshalls as well, where there's a diagonal cross section of the Celestions and V-30s (I'm not very well-versed in speakers so please correct me if I'm wrong) and it supposedly handles a nice balance of the low and high ends without it sounding too metallic. For the kind of tone I really want to get out of my XXX, I've seen a lot of ppl recommend a Boogie cab because of its ability to boost the bottom end ridiculously. When we get our drummer's basement studio redone, I'm gonna try my XXX on his Randall cab and see how it sounds.

I still would love to eventually get my hands on a PRS Archon, Bogner Uberschall or maybe a Mesa, because I'm not loving the Peavey's clean tone. Too tinny sounding, very little warmth. I've been so impressed with the Archon's tone and the power switch to go from 50w to 100w, but I'm still not sure if the distortion tones are enough for me. Local Guitar Center started carrying them back on the 1st so I plan to check one out this weekend. I'm also not sure if I want to go to a two channel amp from a 3 channel one.

Anyway, back on topic:

DeadCell, I think you're going the right route with a 2x12 cab. For most venues a 2x12 is more than enough output, just make sure you have a few crates to elevate it so you can hear yourself on stage.

[Andy92]

You could always check out the EVH 5150 III. Those seem to have better cleans than the predecessors, but the distortion tone is a bit different too. It's a bit less raw but also stays really tight without the need of an overdrive. You almost have to run an overdrive in front of a Rectifier imo. If I had to pick one amp regardless of cash, I'd go for a Uberschall or a Diezel VH4.

[HellRazor1281]

it brings up a 3 pronged dilemma: My bandmates think my tone is good enough for what we play. I'm not 100% happy with it. But it brings up the question, do I need a new amp? New cab? Upgrades/modifications to my guitars? Brand new guitar(s)? Obviously I want to eventually do all of the above but don't have $6000 to spend on a PRS USA Tremonti guitar and a new amp/cab.

My primary guitar is a Gibson LP Classic Goldtop that I bought in '06. Still have the original pups in the guitar, no modifications to electronics. Pickups are sometimes too hot for the type of music I play, sometimes it sounds too muddy. Distinct volume dropoff when I switch to the neck pickup. I have two other electrics, an Epiphone LP Standard and a Tremonti SE stoptail. The SE I plan to sell/upgrade to the SE Custom bc I want a guitar with a trem that ISN'T a Floyd Rose. Obviously I would upgrade the pups to the USA Tremonti pups on the Custom and switch out the nut and possibly volume pots as well. After talking to a friend in another band who swapped out the stock pups in his Gibson for PRS pups and him swearing up and down they improved his tone drastically, I'm considering doing the same with my Goldtop as well as my Epiphone. But I'm kinda wondering what I would do first. I'm thinking of seeing how my amp sounds on my singer's cab before deciding whether or not I need a new cab. But should it be:

cab > modify guitars > new amp > new guitar, or:
cab > modify > new guitar > new amp?

with the money I have set aside I can do the first two steps within the next couple of weeks. The last two obviously would take more time and a lot more $$$. Thoughts? Should I maybe start a new thread on this?