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 Post subject: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:28 pm 
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Bridging The Gap

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Alright, I got this idea while talking about politics in the "One By One prehaps about the war in Iraq"-thread. I couldn't really think about a good name for the thread, so I choose this anyway. In this thread I simply want to ask religious people certain questions, since I am not religous myself. This is not ment to offend anybody, but if you know that you're gonna be anyway. Stop reading here!

Alright, this is one of the things I find really unlogical about religious. I take that we have some Christians here, right? What makes you so sure your version of religion is true? In Scandinavia we believed the world was a big tree that we were all apart of, before Christians pretty much forced us into christianity or killed us. (How is that an act of love, by the way?) However. I think we all can agree that we don't live in a tree. And there are no Gods on Olympos after all. Catch my drift? Men has been creating religons since we first came to life. So my questions for now are; what makes you so sure you are right? Which must make everyone else wrong. And if God created men, how come we know of so many early religions where He wasn't mentioned at all? Why didn't men start believing in Him at once, surely that makes the most sence if He created them.

I'd love for some religious people to answers these questions. Remeber... This is ment to be a friendly discussions. No name calling or such! Keep it on a decent level. I'm just wondering 'cause I wanna know!

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Last edited by The Lithium on Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total

 
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 Post subject: Re: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:31 pm 
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Religion isn't about logic, it's about faith. If you don't have it, you won't understand it.


 
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 Post subject: Re: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:34 pm 
I'm christian, I believe, but i don't participate in organized religion.


 
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:37 pm 
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Bridging The Gap

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al_broccoli wrote:
Religion isn't about logic, it's about faith. If you don't have it, you won't understand it.

True. And that's why I'm asking you guys questions! I'm not trying to proove anything to you. I'm just amazed by how religious people can be so certain on something that isn't fact. (And in some cases scared.) Hope you can take the time to answer my questions, 'cause I really wanna understand it better.

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 Post subject: Re: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:42 pm 
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Al nailed it. I would love to answer some of your questions. I'm all for nice, happy, enlightening discussions Smile

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 Post subject: Re: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:48 pm 
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Keeper of the animals

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I think the first question is this:

Quote:
And if God created men, how come we know of so many early religions where He wasn't mentioned at all? Why didn't men start believing in Him at once, surely that makes the most sence if He created them.


I don't really understand what you're asking in the first sentence. The second sentence: is this a question of why doesn't everyone know God if he is real or why did God create free will?

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I think what Ghandi might have meant was that an eye for an eye sounds like a completely unnecessary trading of a completely un-trade-able body part.


 
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 Post subject: Re: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:57 pm 
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cointurtlemoose wrote:
I think the first question is this:

Quote:
And if God created men, how come we know of so many early religions where He wasn't mentioned at all? Why didn't men start believing in Him at once, surely that makes the most sence if He created them.


I don't really understand what you're asking in the first sentence. The second sentence: is this a question of why doesn't everyone know God if he is real or why did God create free will?

No, no, you got it all wrong... It's a shame English is only my second language.

For example; if God created men, how come, for example, the Greek mythology came to life? If God created men, why did men believe in other Gods? And why didn't He do something about it? Plus the Greek mythology has been proved to be not true. And they were problably as certain as todays Christians are. Don't you think there's a chance in 2000 years Christianity will be dead and also prooven not true? And people will think of Christianity then, as we think about the Greek mythology today.

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 Post subject: Re: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:57 pm 
too deep for me.... I think we all struggle with like this whole religion thing. I struggled in my teens, but now I accept his existance, why he put me here, etc..... This maynot be the question, just telling of my experience.


 
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:00 pm 
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Quote:
For example; if God created men, how come, for example, the Greek mythology came to life? If God created men, why did men believe in other Gods? And why didn't He do something about it? Plus the Greek mythology has been proved to be not true. And they were problably as certain as todays Christians are. Don't you think there's a chance in 2000 years Christianity will be dead and also prooven not true? And people will think of Christianity then, as we think about the Greek mythology today.

Should God have forced everyone to believe in Him?

How can any religion, Greek, Christian, whatever, be proven false?


 
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 Post subject: Re: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:04 pm 
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The Lithium wrote:
No, no, you got it all wrong... It's a shame English is only my second language.

For example; if God created men, how come, for example, the Greek mythology came to life? If God created men, why did men believe in other Gods? And why didn't He do something about it? Plus the Greek mythology has been proved to be not true. And they were problably as certain as todays Christians are. Don't you think there's a chance in 2000 years Christianity will be dead and also prooven not true? And people will think of Christianity then, as we think about the Greek mythology today.


Other religions come to life because man creates them. God gave man free will, and that includes the free will for man to create his own gods (such as Greek mythology). Although this saddens God and he does not will it, he does not interfere with our choice to choose him (DISCLAIMER: this specific point differs in between denominations. But that's beside the point. Just wanted to cover all my bases. Carry on...), to create gods of our own, or to believe in nothing at all.

As for if I think Christianity will be proven false: Being a Christian, I have a faith in my God that is beyond any doubt.

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I think what Ghandi might have meant was that an eye for an eye sounds like a completely unnecessary trading of a completely un-trade-able body part.


 
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 Post subject: Re: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:09 pm 
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I'm a Christian, and it's pretty much all about faith.

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 Post subject: Re: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:29 pm 
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I found this quote a long time ago.. and it kinda stuck with me, and kinda states how paradoxical (no pun intended) Christianity is,

"Christianity is perhaps the only religion I've encountered where it's followers can adopt both a guise of acceptance and tolerance, while at the same time believing in an afterlife of eternal torment for those who don't follow the narrow doctrine of their omniscient, omnipotent, eternally-loving god."

Dunno who it's by... but it's a damn good quote. It's been on my Myspace for ages, right above my Dante's Inferno quiz results, that say I'm going to go to the 9th layer of hell. Meh.

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 Post subject: Re: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:37 pm 
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Meh, whoever said that doesn't really know what it's about.

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 Post subject: Re: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:47 pm 
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Paradox wrote:
I found this quote a long time ago.. and it kinda stuck with me, and kinda states how paradoxical (no pun intended) Christianity is,

"Christianity is perhaps the only religion I've encountered where it's followers can adopt both a guise of acceptance and tolerance, while at the same time believing in an afterlife of eternal torment for those who don't follow the narrow doctrine of their omniscient, omnipotent, eternally-loving god."

Dunno who it's by... but it's a damn good quote. It's been on my Myspace for ages, right above my Dante's Inferno quiz results, that say I'm going to go to the 9th layer of hell. Meh.


You may find this way of looking at it naive, but it's actually very doctrinally accurate:

Hell is essentially nothing more than eternal separation from God. Not fire, not a guy with a pitchfork; these are just descriptions of the indescribable (kind of saying "it's like this..."). Anyways, on earth humans are given the choice what they want after life is over. If they choose God, then they get eternity with God. If they do not choose to follow God, they are not with God for eternity. God gives people what they want.

The difference comes when you consider that the world and all the physical things of the world will pass away.

For unbelievers, naturally, their focus and desires are not on God. So life on the earth isn't too bad. In fact it can be very good and pleasurable. For believers, naturally, their focus and desires are on God. So life on earth can be somewhat frustrating in that earthly things so often interfere with a relationship with their creator.

Christians believe that, without any physical, worldly possessions/relationships/etcetera, an existence separated from God is the worst fate a person can have. And eternal communion with God (without any worldly interference) is too fulfilling to comprehend.

So, like I said, God doesn't really send people too hell. Humans simply choose what they want and, respecting the boundaries of free will he created, God gives it to them.


EDIT: Sorry if the language here sounds judgmental. It is not intended at all that way. I'm just trying to break down the basics of Christian theology.

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I think what Ghandi might have meant was that an eye for an eye sounds like a completely unnecessary trading of a completely un-trade-able body part.


 
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 Post subject: Re: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:53 pm 
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cointurtlemoose wrote:
Paradox wrote:
I found this quote a long time ago.. and it kinda stuck with me, and kinda states how paradoxical (no pun intended) Christianity is,

"Christianity is perhaps the only religion I've encountered where it's followers can adopt both a guise of acceptance and tolerance, while at the same time believing in an afterlife of eternal torment for those who don't follow the narrow doctrine of their omniscient, omnipotent, eternally-loving god."

Dunno who it's by... but it's a damn good quote. It's been on my Myspace for ages, right above my Dante's Inferno quiz results, that say I'm going to go to the 9th layer of hell. Meh.


You may find this way of looking at it naive, but it's actually very doctrinally accurate:

Hell is essentially nothing more than eternal separation from God. Not fire, not a guy with a pitchfork; these are just descriptions of the indescribable (kind of saying "it's like this..."). Anyways, on earth humans are given the choice what they want after life is over. If they choose God, then they get eternity with God. If they do not choose to follow God, they are not with God for eternity. God gives people what they want.

The difference comes when you consider that the world and all the physical things of the world will pass away.

For unbelievers, naturally, their focus and desires are not on God. So life on the earth isn't too bad. In fact it can be very good and pleasurable. For believers, naturally, their focus and desires are on God. So life on earth can be somewhat frustrating in that earthly things so often interfere with a relationship with their creator.

Christians believe that, without any physical, worldly possessions/relationships/etcetera, an existence separated from God is the worst fate a person can have. And eternal communion with God (without any worldly interference) is too fulfilling to comprehend.

So, like I said, God doesn't really send people too hell. Humans simply choose what they want and, respecting the boundaries of free will he created, God gives it to them.


EDIT: Sorry if the language here sounds judgmental. It is not intended at all that way. I'm just trying to break down the basics of Christian theology.


I don't think anyone wants to die and burn eternally... And I'm sure both Christians and Non-believers can find good times and hardships in this life, so really, none of that made any sense to me. Sorry, although I didn't think it came across as judgmental.

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 Post subject: Re: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:55 pm 
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Well, for starters...it's "illogical," not "unlogical."

I was born and raised Roman Catholic, but I do not agree with the current Pope. I believe that Jesus Christ died on a cross for the sins of humanity, and I believe that we all believe in the SAME God. Yahweh, Allah, and God are all the same being. The name changes in different languages.

Plus it should be noted that not only Muslims call God "Allah." Arabic-speaking Christians use the same name.

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 Post subject: Re: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:02 pm 
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My religion is "Yet to be decided." I have no idea whether or not God exists or not, so I bypass all of this discussion and thinking about religion in favoring of saying "I have no idea." I figure that if there is a God, he would let me into heaven because I was a good person, not because I believed in him.

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 Post subject: Re: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:04 pm 
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Paradox wrote:
cointurtlemoose wrote:
Paradox wrote:
I found this quote a long time ago.. and it kinda stuck with me, and kinda states how paradoxical (no pun intended) Christianity is,

"Christianity is perhaps the only religion I've encountered where it's followers can adopt both a guise of acceptance and tolerance, while at the same time believing in an afterlife of eternal torment for those who don't follow the narrow doctrine of their omniscient, omnipotent, eternally-loving god."

Dunno who it's by... but it's a damn good quote. It's been on my Myspace for ages, right above my Dante's Inferno quiz results, that say I'm going to go to the 9th layer of hell. Meh.


You may find this way of looking at it naive, but it's actually very doctrinally accurate:

Hell is essentially nothing more than eternal separation from God. Not fire, not a guy with a pitchfork; these are just descriptions of the indescribable (kind of saying "it's like this..."). Anyways, on earth humans are given the choice what they want after life is over. If they choose God, then they get eternity with God. If they do not choose to follow God, they are not with God for eternity. God gives people what they want.

The difference comes when you consider that the world and all the physical things of the world will pass away.

For unbelievers, naturally, their focus and desires are not on God. So life on the earth isn't too bad. In fact it can be very good and pleasurable. For believers, naturally, their focus and desires are on God. So life on earth can be somewhat frustrating in that earthly things so often interfere with a relationship with their creator.

Christians believe that, without any physical, worldly possessions/relationships/etcetera, an existence separated from God is the worst fate a person can have. And eternal communion with God (without any worldly interference) is too fulfilling to comprehend.

So, like I said, God doesn't really send people too hell. Humans simply choose what they want and, respecting the boundaries of free will he created, God gives it to them.


EDIT: Sorry if the language here sounds judgmental. It is not intended at all that way. I'm just trying to break down the basics of Christian theology.


I don't think anyone wants to die and burn eternally... And I'm sure both Christians and Non-believers can find good times and hardships in this life, so really, none of that made any sense to me. Sorry, although I didn't think it came across as judgmental.


Well, again, people don't literally burn in hell. Hell is only an eternal separation from God. Which is what non-believers choose on earth, so God gives it to them for eternity.

And, yes, both believers and non-believers find good times and hardships. I did a poor job of articulating my point. I guess, bottom line, I'm just trying to say that, whatever people choose on earth, they get for eternity.

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 Post subject: Re: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:12 pm 
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Alright, maybe Im not the best person to talk about this, as I struggle with certain things in my walk with the Lord, mainly my mouth spits out alot of curses. But I will adress anyways.

As far as sending people to Hell, the Bible says something along the lines of "if a master returns to find a servant who wronged and knew of his wrongdoings and did them anyways, the msater will beat them with many blows. If a servant has done wrong not knowing of the masters direct instructions, but still things he should of know not to do, he will be beaten with few blows." Basically, everyone should know not to kill, steal, etc. But if you arent a Christian and havent been exposed, you wont be held accountable as much as someone who willingly went against God's will.


AS far as how can we beleive something that cant be proven true, you do the same thing with science. Somewhere, science had to contradict itself, as the Law of Conservation of Matter/Mass says matter/mass cannot be created or destroyed. Science does not allow for the creation of the universe, becuase even the Big Bang had things existing before it.

That was a strange sentence, I hope you understood it.

God has put in place hundreds of prophecies, many of them have already been filled, some are being filled here and now, and some are still to come. That is the proof for me, as well as seeing God work in so many people's lives. I cannot tell you the times where people (including myself) should have died/been hurt/etc, etc but they werent even scathed.

Basically, your playing a big game of poker and everyone has to go all in with their soul, and your betting your hand wins, or else you could lose everything.

However, if the Christians are right and the atheists are wrong, atheists have alot to pay. If atheists are right and christians are wrong, than we just turn into worm food.

Now, maybe another religion is correct, but realize this. Christianity is the extension of Judaism, so to me, Christianity existed long before the birth of Christ, if that makes any sense.

It jsut that Jews dont beleive the Christ was the Son of God.


 
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 Post subject: Re: Why religion is unlogical
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:13 pm 
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I like Dante's version of hell. I think a quiz told me I belonged with the wrathful. You know, in that river where everyone tears each other to shreds for eternity.

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